5D2, 7D, 60d or don't bother now

[osbornes5]

Been away for awhile as I have had some VERY pressing recital projects on top of living a VERY busy life here of late. Just cranked the last one out...Enough of that for now.

After getting so heavily involved in video some years ago thanks to the expert tuteledge of Hank Castello, we turned into point and shooters in the still realm. I have hated it as the cams are junk and the images ar about the same. Our point and shooters are on dying a slow death and it is time for a change. I have decided to get a DSLR that will allow me to have a very good cam to take pics of my kids as well as be my first HD video cam that I can use in my business. I am looking at the 5D2, 7D, or waiting on the rumored 60D.

Here is how I see my options:

60D - This is only a rumored cam that some say is coming out in June but who knows. One way or the other it is not here yet. I would suspect that it will do video along the lines of the 7D. The cost should be somewhere around what I want to pay. (Really don't want the 50D as it does not do video and is on its way out.

7D - The video on this thing looks very nice but not quite what the 5D will do. The stills look good but some say there is a softness. That seems hard to quantify to me from the images I have seen. They are not quite what the 5D2 will do on just about every level but still very good. They are more than I really want to spend. The AF is outstanding and they shoot 8 FPS. These would make them nice  for shooting my kids in soccer. There is some who say that they can get hot and shut down if you go too long at a time on video. (this is likely due to the dual image processors). I have no way to know if this is true or not. It has a built in flash and can fire remote slave flashes made by Canon.

5D2 - This is the big dog daddy as everyone knows. As far as image quality goes it seems to be the best going outside of the EOS 1's. On both stills and video, the colors seem to be richer, the contrast better, and the overall clarity better. The cost is pretty high and definately more than I wanted to spend by a long shot. There is no built in flash and it only shoots 3.9 FPS (which still seems pretty fast to me). Did I mention that it was pretty expensive?

I am definately concerned about the lack of auto focus. I have never been the best manual focuser and these cams don't auto focus at all. I understand that Canon has merged their video and still departments and that a autofocusing DSLR could be coming sometime. Again this is just a rumor. However I would be SICK if I bought a manual focusing DSLR and six months later the auto focus cam was out. I wouldn't mind losing a few hundred on the deal but I am afraid that once ehy come out the manual rigs will lose alot of value. Then there is the lens issue. THe basic Kit lens for a 5D2 is a 24-105 L lens. This is no doubt, a great lens but it is only an f4-5.6 lens, not a 2.8 like the 24-70 L. Add the 2.8 lens and I am looking at another $1400.

Also, is there a way to record more than 12 minutes at a time on these things?

Anyway, these are a few of my thoughts. I am looking for input on both the still as well as the video sides...(Bil Grant...?)

[BillGrant]

Yeah, well you're not going to like my answer...
This is a research project for you. Hank does not have enough server space to post what is written about these cameras. Here are a few thoughts. The only reason to use these cams for weddings is low light performance. They trounce anything that has EVER been made in the low light dept. It is VERY diificult to use these cameras and your research will turn up what is hard, but let me point out that it is not like shooting video at all. You still have to keep in mind framing, exposure, color, etc. but the feel is very different, the workflow is very different, and the results are very different. My suggestion for you would be to go with the Rebel T2i. I have a very respected colleague who went with the t2i as his first DSLR and is loving it. It is about $800... check out Chris and his tests...
http://vimeo.com/10754718 also look up his lens selection, I think he went with tokina or tamron... you can get a great 28-75 2.8 lens from tamron for about $400.

Good luck, but this is not a question anyone can answer for you. These are also very difficult to use on their own. They need to be paired with a good HD cam for certain things. btw, I have not run across any problems with the 12 minute limit. Now, manual focus, yes; stability, yes; workflow, yes; but not the clip limit. I get 48 mins on a 16G Sandisk Extreme III and I typically use 2 cards per wedding. Be patient, the thngs that can be done with these cameras is astounding, but they are not simple by a longshot.
Bill

[osbornes5]

Is there any sort of external rig that aill allow these cams to record more than 12 mins such as the Firestore rig I think it is called?

[osbornes5]

I should also add to this that for now my biggest reason for purchasing a DSLR is for the still image quality to be used as a family cam. It will be used to shoot everything! Sports, family and individual portrait stuff, dance, etc. This is the primary use. I just figured that while I was buying, I might as well go ahead and get one that will do video as well...obviously that means a Canon right now.

[ampsonic]

If you are looking at a DSLR for video, and can't stretch to a 5D, you need to check out the Panasonic GH1. It's fantastic. And it doesn't have the 12 min limit. And it has autofocus.

I just got one a month ago, and I'm in love.

Here's a quick video my buddy put together day 1 of using this camera:

http://vimeo.com/10788585

[osbornes5]

And it doesn't have the 12 min limit. And it has autofocus.

It is a shameful disgrace that one of the two leading cam mfg's and one who is already heavy into video, can't crank out a cam with auto focus and no ridiculous time limit and yet Panasonic can. Not that Panny is a substandard brand but clearly Canon and Nikon are the industry leading still cams and Canon is far and away the leader in video DSLR's. That is why I think they must be working on such a critter. If they put a full frame sensor in a rig with auto focus and no time limit at the relatively low cost of a DSLR...game over...at least till 3d cams become marketable at a reasonable cost.

[HankCastello]

one that will do video as well...obviously that means a Canon right now.

I haven't researched the market, and the camera Bill pointed you to looks very promising, but I do believe I read in Photography magazine that Nikon had a good dslr that also shot video.

[BillGrant]

The reason Panasonic can exceed the 12 min limite PER CLIP and use autofocus is they use a 4/3 internal shutter and not a physical shutter. This also precludes the chip size and limits all of its imaging.  I would also check out the zacuto shootout that pits the Pan GH1, 5dMkII, 7d, 1D Mkiv and Nikon D3s against film. FILM, and the DSLRS shine. www.zacuto.com/shootout The Panasonic doesn't hold up in comparison. The low light is not very good with the Panasonic so I would rather have a video camera in that case like the HMC-150. In my research, if you are looking for video capability and aren't holding a mint worth of Nikon lenses, the Canons are the only choice. Again, this is not a good ceremony camera and the 12 minute PER CLIP limit is not an issue for me. I would look strongly at the t2i. If I were to get a second DSLR body, it would be the 7d. But, again low light is the only reason I would buy one of these for video.
Bill

[osbornes5]

The NIkons are worse. They are limited to five minutes of HD video per clip. That's crazy. Though I seriously considered the D300S, I eliminated it some time ago when I decided I wanted it to do video as well.

[osbornes5]

This: www.zacuto.com/shootout  is very informative! Thanks for sharing it. It is also amazing. Wonder how much film you could purchase for the price of one of these cams...

[kwshaw1]

What I've read indicates that the clip-length limits are to avoid European taxes on video cameras, with off-the-record confirmation from a Canon rep. Not sure how Panasonic gets around that one, or else they're passing the cost on to customers.   

[osbornes5]

After months of waffling around, trying to make a decision, I placed an order with B&H a couple of days ago. As I write it is sitting in Lenexa, KS (don't you just love UPS tracking?) and should be at my door on Friday.

Here is my order:

Canon 7d w/ 28-135 kit lens
Canon 24-105 L series lens
Canon 430 EXII Speedlight
Lexar Pro 8GB Pro Compact Flash 
Hoya 77mm Filter Kit

I got the kit lens because it only added $200 to the price and they are selling for quite a bit more than that on ebay. Unless my wife wants to keep it to use due to a weight issue or something, it'll probably come in the door and go straight back out through e-bay or Craig's list. I really loved the 24-70 2.8 L series lens, but it was not image stabilized. What's more is the lead like weight of the lens. My wife wouldn't have been happy with it. Plus I needed a bit more reach for the soccer fields. The 24-70 was about $300 more as well.

I really wanted the 5D2 but there is strong rumor that Canon will release a 5D3 soon to compete with a suspected release of the Nikon full frame D700s. The Nikon D700 already appears to be a superior camera to the 5D2 on almost every level except video. I was afraid that if I got the 5D2 and then the 5D3 came out, the value of the 5D2 would drop like a stone. I currently plan to upgrade to the 5D3 when it comes out unless I just love the 7D.

Total cost was $3297.94...OUCH!!!

I'll give a report of it's abilities asap.

[DavidPartington]

It is worth noting that there is a new firmware hack being used by lots of people on the GH1 that now has the image quality exceeding that of the 7D and 5D2 cameras because they have the codec running up to 50mb/s.  Some of the footage is truly awesome.  I had initially dismissed the GH1 myself after the zacuto shootout but my finger is now hovering over the buy button once again.   I'd love to see the zacuto shootout with the new firmware - but of course that's not going to happen.

There seems to be the idea that the 5D2 (and later the 7D) were the cameras to use for indie productions, but it's amazing how many are being shot on the GH1.  The GH1 also has the advantage that you can adapt almost any lens to it, including the manual nikkors, Canon FD, Leica R & M, Zeiss etc etc, whereas on the Canon bodies you are much more limited, and often have to hack the camera to do it.

[osbornes5]

Wow...I'm getting my $3300 purchase poo pooed before it even gets here...how disappointing. Is there a congratulations out there anywhere?  Ahh well...with the 5d2 and 7d nearly equaling and in a couple of cases even exceeding film, particularly the Fuji, in the Zacuto shootout, I suppose I will be OK for now.

Besides, as I mentioned before, I purchased the cam mainly for family and professional still shooting purposes. The fantastic quality HD video was a very nice side benefit. To switch to the GH1 would mean a rather large step backwards in still image quality, auto focus ability, FPS, etc. In the last two months I have spent a bunch of time reading DSLR reviews and the reviews consistently report the GH1's inferiortiy. It has been widely reported as being pretty inferior in almost every way to the Canons for still image quality (not to mention video...out of the box anyway). When the GH1 has been reviewed, it is comapred to lower level DSLRs such as Nikon's D5000 and D90 as well as Canon's T1i and EOS 500d. It is rarely mentioned in the same breath as the 7D and 5d2.  Here is a quote from one review comparing it to the Nikon D90:

For still photography, though, the Nikon D90 is a far stronger camera than the Panasonic GH1, with superior results in nearly every image quality lab test we run, coupled with sophisticated manual controls and rugged body construction

The Nikon D90 is not in the same class as the 5d2/7d. It is a lower level DSLR.

For video, at least out of the box, it is also rarely mentioned as being in the same class as the Canons. It does have one huge benefit and one huge problem.
Benefit: It auto focuses although only on the one or two lenses that are optmized for video.
Problem: Low light performance. This is a sublect that has been discussed ad-nauseum on these forums pretty much since that day that Hank launched them a few years ago due to the need to shoot in low light mostly at weddings. It cannot perform on a level that is in line with the Canons likely due to the sensor sizes.

If the boost in video quality is real (and I must confess that I am dubious about that) and the hack  does not run the risk of damaging the cam or the sensor due to overheating or whatever, it is something that we need to know about. A link to the information would be awesome since I am considering upgrading when the 5d3 comes out and it might warrant a second look perhaps even as a second cam for video only.

     

[HankCastello]

Congratulations!

I, for one, am jealous.  Still stuck with my six year old Nikon and my film Canon 35mm.

I might sell my three VX2100's and buy a dlsr.