1920 x 1080 or 1440 x 1080?

[mark-mvs]

Hello all, so I'm getting ready to get a newer video cam and I'm kind of torn. I was looking at the the Canon XH-A1s but I see it does 1440 instead of 1920. Does that mean the frame will not be widescreen? Do you think there is a significant quality difference between these two resolutions? I'm also considering the soon-to-be-released Canon XF-300. I don't like the price but the specs look good and unlike the XH-A1s, it is tapeless (which I prefer at this point.)

I've also heard that next year Sony will be coming out with a video cam with a sensor at least as large as those in the 5D/7D and so on. So perhaps I should get the less expensive Canon, knowing that I'll replace it with a better camera next year (at which point I'd sell it.) A video cam with a huge sensor would make low light shooting so much better looking and easier to deal with in post.

here are the stats on the two cameras I mentioned... what do you all think?
Thanks
Mark

Canon XH-A1s 3CCD HDV Camcorder
MiniDV
HDV: 1080i/60i, 1080i/30f, 1080i/24f
*Optional PAL/NTSC 50i/60i upgrade available via Canon's Factory Service Center.
Image Device
3 1/3" Native 16:9 CCDs at 1440 x 1080 (Interlaced)
Lens
4.5-90mm (32.5-650mm; 35mm photo equivalent)
72mm Front Lens Filter Thread
Sensitivity
f/1.6-3.5mm
Built-in Filters
ND: 1/6, 1/32
LCD Monitor
2.8" (207,000 Pixels)
Viewfinder
0.57" (269,000 Pixels)
Memory Card Slot
Secure Digital High Capacity (SDHC)
Secure Digital (SD)
MultiMedia Card (MMC)

Canon XF300 Professional Camcorder
•   3 Native 1920 x 1080 CMOS Sensors
•   50Mbps MPEG-2 Recording
•   4:2:2 Color Sampling
•   60p/60i, 30p, 24p
•   MXF File Format
•   Dual CF Card Slots
•   18x HD L-Series Zoom
•   Multiple Bit Rates, Resolutions
•   Dual XLR Inputs
•   HDMI, Component, Composite Outputs

[BillGrant]

Mark,
HDV uses a "pixel shift" technology that takes square pixels and stands them on end. The result is a 1920x1080 widescreen image, but using shifted pixels rahter than sqaure. It means nothing in the end. The picture from the XH-a1s is true widescreen and progressive. I would suggest that the XF300 is probably a little overpriced for what you get. I have 2 XHA1s and I love em. If I were to buy a newer card based camera, it would be the Panasonic HMC-150. I really like what I've seen out fo this cam. Good luck.
BIll

[DavidPartington]

I looked long and hard at many cameras before I went HD.  The Canon XH-A1 was one of the ones I seriously considered, but in the end I was put off by the fact it still used tapes (good and bad points for tapes) and it was HDV (1440x1080).  The good side of tapes is that you have your original tapes to go back to, so there are no inherent backup problems.  The bad part about tapes is the old problem of bad tapes and maintenance of the heads & mechanism etc.  To be fair, it I had to shoot tapes now it wouldn't bother me too much.

I also looked at the various Sony HDV offerings (as well as the EX1), but in the end decided on the HMC150 (actually the HMC151 because I am in a PAL country).  The only drawback I can see for the HMC is that a typical wedding leaves me with about 80GB-90GB of footage on my hard disk that needs to be backed up.   The camera itself is great to use - and I ended up buying 4 of them

Since then Canon released their new XF300 camera, and had that been around at the time I am sure that would have been a serious contender for my money too.  Having the ability to record to dual cards is very desirable (for backup) but also very expensive if you have to buy twice as many cards.

Having said all this, one of the main reasons I chose the HMC over several other cameras was the CCD vs CMOS issues.  I tried a couple of CMOS cameras and while they had a nice sharp image (sharper than the HMC) the did suffer from the JELLO and Flash Band problem.   I don't think I would see much Jello since I avoid pans as much as possible, especially fast pans, but as a wedding videographer the flash banding would drive me nuts.

[kwshaw1]

HDV uses a "pixel shift" technology that takes square pixels and stands them on end.

Pixel shift is the wrong term here: HDV 1080i uses anamorphic (non-square) pixels which have to be "stretched" horizontally to yield a 1920x1080 image on a square-pixel monitor. Technically this means the maximum horizontal resolution is 1440 lines of detail, but few affordable HD cameras can do any better so this isn't a big deal.

Pixel shift is the process of interpreting data from a camera sensor to create more recorded pixels than are actually present on the sensor, and is used by many HD cameras. Panasonic HD cameras typically have only 960x540 pixels per layer in their sensors and have to "shift" the raw data to generate HD video, which results in soft images compared to many other cameras. The Canon XH-A1, by comparison, actually has 1440x1080 pixels per layer of the sensor and hence doesn't have to shift that information to create the 1440x1080 recorded image, resulting in crisp images compared to most cameras in this price range. So resolution is a tricky thing and worrying about 1440 versus 1920 horizontal pixels isn't relevant for most wedding videos.

[BillGrant]

Well,
That's all I was really trying to say is that it's not really relevant.
Bill

[mark-mvs]

Thanks you guys, I really appreciate you getting back to me so quickly. From what the folks at the video stores have been telling me the HMC-150 and the XH-A1s are comparable in quality but that the XH-A1s (being tape based) has to do some extra compression for the tape. Apparently they are both really good but one step below "broadcast quality" (which I don't know if I'd need anyway.)

In terms of broadcast quality cams, people have been telling me about the Panasonic HPX-170, the Sony PMW-EX1R and of course the Canon XF300. All way too pricey for now except for the HPX-170. However THAT camera uses the P2 cards which are about $900 per 64gig card. Also this video being less compressed I'm not sure how much footage I could fit onto each card. (The camera holds 2.)

At the moment I'm leaning towards the Pansonics HMC-150 and the HPX-170.....

[DavidPartington]

I looked at both the HPX17x and HMC15x and one of the reasons I went with the HMC was the cost of the cards.  I bought 10x 16GB SDHC cards, but buying 10x 16GB P2 cards was going to be beyond budget because it would have meant having to buy one less camera (I ended up buying 4 cameras in all).  As I look to buy more cards I'm glad I went SDHC and not P2! 

In terms of the difference in quality between the 17x and 15x cameras, you are unlikely to see it on wedding videos.  Where the 17x shines is green screen because it has 4:2:2 instead of 4:2:0.  I had been a little concerned about this on the HMC 151, but I needn't have worried because I've never had any problems pulling a good key on the green screen shoots I've done (though I did light them well).

[BillGrant]

Mark,
PLEASE don't listen to the advice of camera store people. They want you to get what works for them. If I had all the money in the world, I would use 2 EX1s and a 5D MkII with about 4 different lenses. Being a realist "broadcast quality" means NOTHING. I've had my A1 footage in SD broadcast hundreds of times. I think in the end the HMC 150 is probably a better choice depending on your budget because it is better in low light. I have enjoyed the A1 alot in 2 years i've been using them but there are much better cameras out there now. I would not squable about little techie things like pixel size or compression ratios. I would look at samples and go with my gut. That's what I did with the A1 and I have been very happy.
Bill

[DavidPartington]

Another major thing to look are when comparing the Panasonic to the Canon and Sony is the lens.   Personally, I liked the wider angle on the Panasonic, and at the long end it's just about long enough in a big church.    My recollection was that the Canon and Sony went longer but not as wide.  Sometimes I use all the wide and still want more (I'm thinking formal group photo shoots etc).   Just something to think about.

All the cameras you mentioned would do the job, so you could by every single one of them and make it work. 

In my mind the questions are:

1) Do you still want to still shoot tape - if yes then the XH-A1 is the choice, if not then discount the HX-A1.
2) How much budget do you have for media (cards).  This will help you decide if you want to buy all the P2 cards (or the Sony SxS) - which are expensive.  This may or may not eliminate the EX1 and HPX170.
3) How much are the extra batteries going to cost?
4) Does the lens go wide enough and long enough?
5) What is the warranty on the model you are looking at?  Panasonic is 3 years - not sure about the others.

After that - don't worry about 1280x720, 1440x1080, 1920x1080.  They all produce great footage.

[kwshaw1]

That's all I was really trying to say is that it's not really relevant.

True enough. Technical specs only mean so much, assuming you like the overall look of the image.