Cameras: First Generation vs User Tested Models

[mark-mvs]

Hi all, so here's the question: When a new type of camera with great specs that you like comes out... do you get it or do you wait a year for it to be tested by others and see how it does? I was talking with an indy filmmaker about the Panasonic AG-AF100 and his reply was "I would never buy a first generation camera." He said he'd wait a year for two reasons, 1) To let them work the kinks out of the first generation and 2) Because there should be more options from competitors making cameras.

On the other hand, it seems like there's always new stuff coming out so you could conceivably always be waiting....

Thoughts?
Mark

[ampsonic]

Go check out the Panasonic GH1 forum at DVXuser for a lot of talk about that camera. It has a lot of people really excited!

I wouldn't say it needs to be out for a whole generation, but I would wait till real filmmakers have had it in there hands and there are some real life reviews to read.

[HankCastello]

Budget and need have to be taken into account.  Someone with deep pockets can afford to buy just to satisfy his curiosity or desire for a new toy.  Someone who is already in the market, may buy a first-generation since he intends to use the camera several years and to do otherwise might mean working with a dinosaur in a couple years.  People who aren't in the market, can more readily fight the temptation to buy and take a wait and see attitude.

[BillGrant]

Well Mark,
I can tell you I bought the 5DmkII about 6 months into release. For the first 6 months, there was no manual control. I bought it only when manual was announced. It also had a big problem with audio synching to external recorders. That was fixed in January when they added 24p. It was not a usable camera for me until audio would synch. So, I imagine this $5k plus lenses panasonic will have similar fun quirks for the first while, but I generally wait and see what rises to the top. I remember when the Sony V1 was announced with 24p and the ability to add the CF recorder, etc. well the people that jumped on that camera got a little burntish. Where I waited to see which of that crop would have longevity. Turns out I chose well with the canon A1 and it has served me well. Same with the DSLRs. If I had waited, I could've gotten a 7D for $1k less and it would've had all of the issues I had with the 5D pretty much fixed. But, then again, I had about 6 months of practice with the 5D before the 7D was annouced. All that is to say, if I had the choice and aforethought, I would wait for testing of these cams to see which lasts. Good luck.
Bill

[mark-mvs]

Thanks Hank and Bill for your responses. One of the things I'm faced with is the old "buying 1 camera is cheaper than buying 2." Meaning I could play it safe and get the HMC-150, it's been around for a while and has great reviews and then get the AG-AF100 in a year or so. But then I've essentially added 3k to the price of the AF100 and will not recoup my full loss if I sell the HMC-150 to someone else.

Still Bill has some good points. No matter how much testing they do in the lab, it's not as valuable as consumer testing in the field.

Well the AF isn't out until December anyway so I've got some time to think. (By the way the Sony PMW-F3 comes out in January 2011, but I think that will be ridiculously expensive. Still it's exciting to see the advances they're making with cameras these days.)

[BillGrant]

Mark,
Also I'm not sure of your experience level with new cams. But here's my 2 cents. I would first of all, try to find some Used HMC-150s. 2 if you need 2. I wouldn't spend the 8-10k it's going to take to fully outfit that AF cam with lenses, etc. I would stick with something proven. At some point, you could easily pick up a 60D for the same effect and if you need Audio then use a Zoom H4N or run into the HMC. I think the AF is probably VERY overhyped at this point and certainly cannot be worth the scratch...
Bill

[DavidPartington]

I have to agree with Bill here.   While I like the idea of the AF-100, it is as yet unproven, and you may need to buy several lenses to go with it just to make one good working system.

The AF-100 uses the same size sensor as the GH1.  I bought a GH1 in June after reading all the hype. Having tried the GH13 hack I have been less than impressed by the quality of the footage, even with third party lenses.   Honestly, the HMCs looked sharper, and that is saying something!  I sold it about a month ago.  Contrary to what people say on DVXUser (there are lots of people raving about it) I found the GH1 sensor less than ideal for weddings. 

I'm really not that impressed by the M43 lens offerings by Panasonic.  The 20 f1.7 is great, but after that I'm running short of good ones to pick at reasonable prices. Long lenses that are 'fast' are not so cheep.  The reasonably prices lenses are all in the f4-5.6 range which is way too slow for badly lit receptions and even most churches. The film guys can get away with it because they can usually add lights as required. 

Remember also that if you want 'wide' then your options are extremely limited on the m43 format.  The 20mm f1.7 is a 40mm equivalent (when thinking in photography terms) which is really not that wide.  The HMC150s are 28-350 equivalent.   On a Canon 5D I use as wide as a 14mm.

I'm still using HMCs along side DSLRs, and they work very well.  I'm hoping Canon aren't going to be much more than another 6-8 months with a 5D mk3 because while the popularity of the 5D mk2 caught them off guard, they have been talking / listening hard to the film/video guys (as many of the film guys have said) and I think/hope we will see some real magic on the next model. 

[mark-mvs]

Good points all! The AF-100 (at the moment) has an estimated price of 5k, now sure what it would cost to get an appropriate lense(s) for it. In theory I could probably get 2 HMC-150's for the price of 1 AF-100.

I'd say my biggest hesitation with the AF is that is hasn't been tried in the field yet. I have looked at test footage shot by unbiased 3rd party filmmakers and to me it looked pretty impressive.

My situation is that I'm a one camera man two camera operation. At the ceremony I have a camera on a tripod and then use my other camera for roaming and close ups. So the idea I find the most attractive is having 1 fully functional video camera (with full audio) that can also pull off that lovely shallow depth of focus that the DSLR's achieve so well. I suppose it's possible to roam with an HMC-150 and then have a Canon D60 on me as well to go in tight for the artistic shots. But that might be a little awkward or cumbersome.

Well, I think your cautions regarding new equipment make sense. It may be safer to wait and see what folks say about the AF-100 after it's been on the market for a year.

[BillGrant]

Also,
Consider that you don't want shallow DOF on a lock down tripod shot. You want WIDE DOF because you never know where your subject is going to be. Shallow DOF is not always desirable and less so in unmanned video situation.
BIll

[DavidPartington]

Also,
Consider that you don't want shallow DOF on a lock down tripod shot. You want WIDE DOF because you never know where your subject is going to be. Shallow DOF is not always desirable and less so in unmanned video situation.
BIll

...and therein lies the biggest problem with DSLR and larger sensor cameras.   In the testing I did with the HMC vs the GH1 I noticed that the the native ISO of the HMC was nearer to ISO 800 on the GH1, so the HMC already had a major advantage over the GH1 in terms of light sensitivity.   I could set the HMC to 0db gain and open iris (which still gives good DOF when the zoom is set wide) but needed to be at ISO 3200 on the GH1 to match it.  The noise on the GH1 was pretty unusable, even with Neat Image, and the DOF was completely unusable for an unattended camera. 

As far as I know, Panasonic have not yet disclosed the final base ISO setting for the AF-100, but from the pre-production units it seems to be ISO 100, just like the GH1.  If this is the case then I think the AF-100 may be somewhat unusable in the darker environments we often find ourselves without additional lighting.  It will need very fast glass to avoid really high ISO settings, but this in turn means shallow DOF, so now you would need to man the camera too.

For me, at the moment the HMC is the best choice for that unattended camera, regardless of how many operators you have.