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Author Topic: Reaching crispest focus  (Read 261 times)
adrianajones
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« on: June 01, 2011, 08:22:00 PM »

My husband and I are starting wedding videography together.  This will probably seem like a very basic question, but we are running into issues with focusing, on both our primary panasonic hmc 150 and also our canon eos 60d in movie mode.  Is it supposed to be this difficult to focus?  Do you all have additional gear that help you focus better, like additional on-camera video screens, or is it possible to get crispest possible focus simply looking through the cameras own LCD screens, and using the magnification/focus assist aids that come with the cameras?  It is seeming like a hit and miss thing, getting the focus right, and it's one of those things that I don't know that extra practice will solve it.  I do notice that I may be getter better focus when my camera is on a tripod than when I'm just holding it. Could slight camera shake also be interfering with my eye's ability to see fine nuances on the LCD screen?  Thanks!
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HankCastello
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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2011, 01:55:30 PM »

You've hit upon one of the biggest issues new videographers face - focus.  There are basically two schools of thought here -

1. Set to autofocus and pay attention (beforehand preferably!) to things that can steal focus - like converging contrasting lines, windows, etc. 

2. Keep one hand on the focus ring and a sharp eye on your subject.  Lots of practice helps here.  And needless to say, you need a large enough lcd, etc.

In low light, autofocus doesn't work very well, but with care and in well-lit situations, it can work fine.  Again, you need to stay aware of "focus thieves" and manage your positions to avoid them or switch to manual focus.

My wife bought a field monitor when she realized her Canon A1's lcd wasn't as large as her old VX2100.  This worked for her because she didn't do a lot of movement. 

Most of my shooting was from a shoulder-mount camera (other than ceremonies) and I generally used the eyepiece and manual focus when I was stationary but autofocus if I was on the move a lot.

Camera shake is one of the worst evils of novice videographers - and I don't just mean its effect on focus.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 02:01:11 PM by HankCastello » Logged

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DavidPartington
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2011, 03:03:13 AM »

Hi Adriana, welcome to the forums.

I'm an ex-HMC shooter (we had 4) and now have 5 (soon to be 6) Canon DSLRs, including the 60D.  We now shoot weddings exclusively on DSLRs.

As you are well aware by now, the LCD on the HMC it not the sharpest around.  In fact, it's positively soft. You cannot (let me repeat this, you CANNOT) judge focus using the LCD without also using the focus assist function that zooms the LCD in to 100%.  Even then, the LCD is still soft, so I always found myself manually zooming the camera in (we almost never had servo zoom engaged), then use the focus assist (so now we're zoomed all the way in to the subject and have focus assist on too), focus, turn focus assist off then zoom out.  All in all, this takes about 7 seconds, but can be done without turning record off (so at least you can maintain continuous audio).

I never found the HMC auto focus to be reliable enough, either to achieve accurate focus quickly, or to focus on what I wanted it to focus on.  If you like your subject smack in the middle of the frame then it's OK, but if you are trying to frame your subject properly then manual focus is the only solution.

The ONLY time we ever used auto focus was for the Bride & Groom walking directly towards us or away from us, e.g. Processional and Recessional.  Period.  End of Story.  I know others use it a lot more, but then they complain about missed focus and all I can say is 'told you so" (sorry - didn't mean it in a bad way!).

Now, the 60D is a completely different animal. The LCD is relatively sharp, but of course the 60d has no auto focus built in while recording so you absolutely have to stop, refocus then restart again. 

The best way to focus on the 60D is to use the zoom button (DON'T zoom the lens for focus because SLR lenses don't maintain the same focus throughout their range). So, the zoom button is the top right button on the back with the little magnifier and the + sign.  (Sorry if you already know this, but others may be reading this who don't).  Press this once and it zooms in to 5x, press again and it zooms to 10x.  Press again and it goes back to full view.  So, at 10x you can generally achieve accurate focus, at least in reasonable light Smiley  If you don't want to reframe in order to see the subject on screen while at 10x then use the cursor (the inner dial around the 'set' button) to move which part of the subject is being magnified.

AF on the 60D is achieved by moving the camera until the red focus point is over the subject then pressing and holding the AF-ON button on the back.  Simply pressing it won't focus, you need to hold it until the camera has actually focussed.  Once focused, reframe and hit record.

Of course, the 60D has the same issues as any camera.  AF can be confused by objects close to your subject, including backgrounds.  You also have the issue that fast lenses (e.g. f1.4) can have fairly shallow depth of field, so if you are even marginally out, you lost.  The same goes for long lenses.  We generally have one of the cameras at the back of the isle with the 70-200 f2.8 on it and at 200mm f2.8, the depth of field (the in focus bit) is only 0.79 feet.  So, you can have the couple in focus OR the officiant, but not both!   

If you have slower lenses (e.g. f4.5-5.6) then focusing is always going to be much harder because they are letting so much less light in.

In terms of tripod vs hand hold, while it's possible (with practice) to hand hold the HMC and get relatively steady footage, we shot 99.9999999% of the time on a tripod.   I wouldn't even think about shooting the 60D hand held because the CMOS rolling shutter is going to pretty much destroy the shot.   Maybe you can do it with a shoulder brace, or a Glidecam if you have the time to set it up, but the tripod will always provide a more stable shot, something that is critical with CMOS sensors.

I'm also interested in how you are finding the 60D and HMCs match in post production.  I could never get them to look close enough to be happy.  The DSLR footage just stood out head and shoulders above the rest.   Maybe you have a secret formula you'd care to share?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 03:10:28 AM by DavidPartington » Logged

adrianajones
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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2011, 10:44:11 PM »

You've hit upon one of the biggest issues new videographers face - focus.  There are basically two schools of thought here -

1. Set to autofocus and pay attention (beforehand preferably!) to things that can steal focus - like converging contrasting lines, windows, etc. 

2. Keep one hand on the focus ring and a sharp eye on your subject.  Lots of practice helps here.  And needless to say, you need a large enough lcd, etc.

We did our first wedding last saturday (we're doing some free this summer to build a portfolio)... we survived it.  Yay.  For now it looks like I'll be adhering to school of thought number 2, but will probably want to look more into number 1 when I film more footage that involves following moving people, or moving with the camera.  The tripod is my best friend right now, I would feel lost without it. 
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adrianajones
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2011, 10:52:13 PM »



As you are well aware by now, the LCD on the HMC it not the sharpest around.  In fact, it's positively soft. You cannot (let me repeat this, you CANNOT) judge focus using the LCD without also using the focus assist function that zooms the LCD in to 100%.  Even then, the LCD is still soft, so I always found myself manually zooming the camera in (we almost never had servo zoom engaged), then use the focus assist (so now we're zoomed all the way in to the subject and have focus assist on too), focus, turn focus assist off then zoom out.  All in all, this takes about 7 seconds, but can be done without turning record off (so at least you can maintain continuous audio).

I never found the HMC auto focus to be reliable enough, either to achieve accurate focus quickly, or to focus on what I wanted it to focus on.  If you like your subject smack in the middle of the frame then it's OK, but if you are trying to frame your subject properly then manual focus is the only solution.

The ONLY time we ever used auto focus was for the Bride & Groom walking directly towards us or away from us, e.g. Processional and Recessional.  Period.  End of Story.  I know others use it a lot more, but then they complain about missed focus and all I can say is 'told you so" (sorry - didn't mean it in a bad way!).

Now, the 60D is a completely different animal. The LCD is relatively sharp, but of course the 60d has no auto focus built in while recording so you absolutely have to stop, refocus then restart again. 

The best way to focus on the 60D is to use the zoom button (DON'T zoom the lens for focus because SLR lenses don't maintain the same focus throughout their range). So, the zoom button is the top right button on the back with the little magnifier and the + sign.  (Sorry if you already know this, but others may be reading this who don't).  Press this once and it zooms in to 5x, press again and it zooms to 10x.  Press again and it goes back to full view.  So, at 10x you can generally achieve accurate focus, at least in reasonable light Smiley  If you don't want to reframe in order to see the subject on screen while at 10x then use the cursor (the inner dial around the 'set' button) to move which part of the subject is being magnified.

AF on the 60D is achieved by moving the camera until the red focus point is over the subject then pressing and holding the AF-ON button on the back.  Simply pressing it won't focus, you need to hold it until the camera has actually focussed.  Once focused, reframe and hit record.

Of course, the 60D has the same issues as any camera.  AF can be confused by objects close to your subject, including backgrounds.  You also have the issue that fast lenses (e.g. f1.4) can have fairly shallow depth of field, so if you are even marginally out, you lost.  The same goes for long lenses.  We generally have one of the cameras at the back of the isle with the 70-200 f2.8 on it and at 200mm f2.8, the depth of field (the in focus bit) is only 0.79 feet.  So, you can have the couple in focus OR the officiant, but not both!   

If you have slower lenses (e.g. f4.5-5.6) then focusing is always going to be much harder because they are letting so much less light in.

In terms of tripod vs hand hold, while it's possible (with practice) to hand hold the HMC and get relatively steady footage, we shot 99.9999999% of the time on a tripod.   I wouldn't even think about shooting the 60D hand held because the CMOS rolling shutter is going to pretty much destroy the shot.   Maybe you can do it with a shoulder brace, or a Glidecam if you have the time to set it up, but the tripod will always provide a more stable shot, something that is critical with CMOS sensors.

I'm also interested in how you are finding the 60D and HMCs match in post production.  I could never get them to look close enough to be happy.  The DSLR footage just stood out head and shoulders above the rest.   Maybe you have a secret formula you'd care to share?

HMC soft focus?  YES!  What saved our butts at our filming last saturday was the marshall field monitor that the delivery man delivered just in time...

as for the 60d, when i zoom in to focus it doesn't remain in focus when i zoom out... i think this is because i have a varifocal lens instead of a parfocal one.... or so would be implied by the wiki article i read... I used the lens that came with the camera (EFS 18 - 135 mm), I can't get the best focus at the smaller focal lengths using this lens, apparently... what helped with it was to use it mostly at the higher focal lengths where the 10x magnification was detailed enough so I could focus properly....
as far as post-production... we are just now learning much of this ourselves right now... we have officially jumped into the water and now we will see if we sink or swim =) I'll let you know what if anything we learn regarding matching the cameras looks =)

Thank you to both, for the answers to my question.
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DavidPartington
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2011, 04:09:40 AM »

OK - sounds like you have got started but are only just starting to get a handle on the gear - so NOW is a good time to practice.

Honestly, the 18-135 can get the job done as long as you have good light, but you'll want to be upgrading that lens ASAP!  Look for lenses that are f2.8 rather than f5.6, it will make a HUGE difference in low light.  We have prime lenses that go all the way to f1.4 and occasionally (e.g. very low light) we have to use them!

As per paragraph 5 in my first reply, you discovered that you can't zoom in, focus then zoom out on DSLR lenses.  They're just not built for that! You need to learn to use the auto focus button on the back of the 60D (the AF-ON button) to focus wider angle shots.  It WORKS - practice it and you'll end up using it more than you manual focus on the 60D.  However, it's not going to work well in very low light with an f5.6 lens, because an f5.6 lens is only letting in 1/32 of the light that's really out there!  Imagine closing your eyes enough to only let in 1/32 of the available light and then see how much you can really see! High ISO cameras are pretty amazing nowadays! 

At wider focal lengths, you automatically get more depth of field, so you can also afford to be marginally off with your focus and still get a useable shot.  You can't do that at 135mm though! 

Check the depth of field guides here : http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

Use the Canon 7D setting (they are the same sensor and crop) and play around to figure out what's critical and what's not.


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