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Author Topic: Panasonic HMC150  (Read 2638 times)
kwshaw1
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« on: October 28, 2008, 10:12:14 AM »

This new camera may become a hot item for wedding videography, if the details of editing the footage can be resolved effectively. Video is recorded in a variation of AVCHD using a slightly higher bandwidth similar to HDV, and currently requires transcoding to an "intermediate" editing codec for best results - whcih can take as long or longer than capturing a similar amount of footage from tape. Benefits include an affordable solid-state recording solution, a "pre-roll" buffer which can save you from having to record excess footage while waiting for key events, and built-in XLR jacks at a price point Sony won't touch for that feature. Another drawback is the use of a low-resolution 960x540 sensor using pixel shift to achieve HD resolution, but that shouldn't be a big deal for most wedding work.

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=274232&catGroupId=112502&surfModel=AG-HMC150&displayTab=O
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BluevoyageTV
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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2009, 12:23:16 AM »

I have been using this camera along with HVX 200. I love this camera. It has great low light sensitivity and mouth watering wide angle lens. Here are some sample videos.
http://www.vimeo.com/3393056
http://www.vimeo.com/5150619

I just finished shooting a short documentary and 16gb sd cards are a blessing. I had 5 of them which allowed me to shoot 500 minutes of 1080/24p AVCHD footage. That translates to 300 GB of Apple ProRess 422 video on your Final cut pro NLE system.
I will post the teaser when I upload to vimeo.
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HankCastello
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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2009, 08:43:14 AM »

Nice work!

Thanks for the informative posts on lights, etc. (elsewhere) also.  I was seriously considering buying those Litepanels.
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BluevoyageTV
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« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2009, 07:20:33 PM »

Tell me about it Hank, I had so much high hopes for that light. After spending $250 I am stuck with it. Ohh well. Lesson learned.
I used that top light on this documentary see if you can spot it? Smiley
http://www.vimeo.com/7196780
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HankCastello
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« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2009, 06:11:34 PM »

I don't know about the light.  It took me until daylight in your video to figure out my audio problem.  I enjoyed the videography though - great night shots.  Glad I had the sound working by the time they started pouring the dye - great piano music!

How'd you get that shot at the end?
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DavidPartington
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« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2010, 10:18:08 AM »

For those still considering this camera (I know it's a while since any one posted on this) I thought I'd chip in.   I just changed over to using the HMC151 (the European version of the 150) and having just shipped the first disc created using these cameras (we shoot with 3 of them) and really I'm quite happy.

Noise in low light @ 12db cleans up nicely with a light touch of Neat Video.

The on-board mics are 'ok' but not brilliant and I use the Rode NTG-2 any time 'this' camera needs to be the main audio capture device, or the Sennheiser G2 for stuff that's too far away (e.g. B+G vows) for reliable capture. 

In pre-wedding testing I thought we had all the (manual) focusing perfected using the focus assist, but both me and my son managed to get some mildly OOF footage when zoomed in all the way (e.g. from the back of a church all the way up to the couple kneeling at the altar).   The focus assist can be a little misleading and I recommend using the EVF function when in doubt.  Since we run in manual mode 98% of the time I don't really have much experience of the auto mode - except the auto focus coped quite happily on the bride & groom walking out of the church.   I just need to find a cure for (still) photographers kicking the tripod!

After editing the first wedding completely in HD the DVD was 'disappointing', and I had to go back to previous DVDs in order to convince myself that we weren't delivering something that was 'sub-standard'.  It's just that seeing "SD" for the first time after editing and watching it all in "HD" was a shock.   The Blu-ray came out very nicely indeed Smiley
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Jason.Teets
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« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2010, 03:04:05 PM »

Can you re-use the SD cards (are they SD cards?) for HD footage, or is that strongly advised against? I'm just thinking, with SD cards as expensive as they are, if I invest in this camera, and then need to buy a ton of SD cards as well, is it really worth it? Thoughts?
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DavidPartington
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« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2010, 05:22:44 PM »

Reuse?  Do you mean can you reformat them and use them again?   Absolutely!

While you can re-use older SD cards - you can't record at the highest quality settings. For that you need at least a class 4 SDHC card (ignore the specs quoted some places saying you need class 6 - you only need class 4).

I have a bunch of SDHC cards that I have used many times without any problems.   I chose not to use my older SD cards because I wanted the highest quality settings.
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Jason.Teets
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« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2010, 09:08:23 AM »

I've seen that some people are buying 35mm lens adapters for this camera, like the Letus Extreme. Has anyone seen that type of setup in action? I've heard that with the lens mounted, the total weight is about 10 pounds... not exactly an easy handheld shooting device for a wedding - however - I think it would be an amazing look with some great (shallow) depth of field.

With or without the 35mm adapter, I'm definitely leaning towards this camera as my company's next investment. Perhaps in as little as two weeks I'll have one in the mail. I've compared it to the JVC GY-HD110u, and to me the HMC150 beats it out with imagery, and mobility. This will be my company's first "major" purhcase (other than my MacBook), so where do you vets recommend purchasing from? I've heard good things about B&H, but I've also heard they can be a bit more pricy. Any other tips on buying a camera? Should I go with a 1 year, 3 year, or 5 year warranty?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 09:14:16 AM by Jason.Teets » Logged

DavidPartington
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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2010, 03:40:23 AM »

I've seen some awesome footage from the HMC + Letus Extreme, and if I wanted to buy a 35mm adapter the Letus Extreme would be the one I would go for.

At the moment I don't really have use for the Letus (as much as I'd like those effects at a wedding), but the thing that puts me off (and really it's the only thing) is that for that type of shooting I feel the Canon 5D2 or 7D may be a better solution because you don't need the adapter at all.  Of course there is a price difference, and in terms of panning (I don't pan much unless I am following a subject) the 3CCD sensor on the HMC blows the CMOS sensors out of the water for things like jello and even blur, not to mention the flash problems with CMOS too.

So, all-in-all, think carefully where you spend your money.  Do you want to spend it on an adapter, with all the associated problems that go with it (mounting, size, weight, balance, light loss etc) or get something that can shoot natively with shallow DOF and awesome high ISO?

I love my HMCs (I have 4 of them now) but for shallow DOF I would probably use a video capable DSLR instead.
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Jason.Teets
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« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2010, 07:46:32 PM »

You know, maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm not sold on the DSLR HD video. Granted, I haven't done a whole ton of research into them... but there are too many things that seem to throw me off. For example, I've heard rumors that when shooting over 20 minutes, there is an overheating issue with the 7D (and that some have even shutdown!). I'm not extremely educated on the CMOS sensors versus the 3CCD chips, but if panning is kind of sketchy, I'd rather go with a "real" video camera. I guess it's just my opinion that as a I'm striving to become a more professional wedding videographer, I want a professional camcorder that IS a camcorder, not a DSLR that shoots HD video. I don't know, does that make any sense? Shallow DOF is important to me, but not at the cost of passing on the best overall camera for my needs (which appears to be the HMC150).

I don't think I'd get the Letus Extreme up front. It would be a down-the-road purchase when I'm lucky enough to make time for a creative non-wedding project or two. I'm not even sure I'd ever use it in a wedding, considering the potential problems you mentioned (mounting, size, weight... etc). Would still be a nice "toy" though.

Quote
I love my HMCs (I have 4 of them now)...

Share the love man! My mailing address is...  Wink

No honestly though... what are your thoughts on warranties David? I'm leaning towards just a 3yr warranty to try and save money... but then again, I'm thinking "Hey, if I'm spending this much, what's an extra several hundred for the 5yr?"

What are some accessories that you're utilizing with your HMCs? Shotgun Mics? What batteries? What tripod you mounting to? I'm doing my own research on accessories now, but your input would be much appreciated. I'm thinking about clicking the BUY button within a week or two here...

Jason
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 07:51:46 PM by Jason.Teets » Logged

DavidPartington
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« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2010, 07:53:47 AM »

You know, maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm not sold on the DSLR HD video. Granted, I haven't done a whole ton of research into them... but there are too many things that seem to throw me off. For example, I've heard rumors that when shooting over 20 minutes, there is an overheating issue with the 7D (and that some have even shutdown!). I'm not extremely educated on the CMOS sensors versus the 3CCD chips, but if panning is kind of sketchy, I'd rather go with a "real" video camera. I guess it's just my opinion that as a I'm striving to become a more professional wedding videographer, I want a professional camcorder that IS a camcorder, not a DSLR that shoots HD video. I don't know, does that make any sense? Shallow DOF is important to me, but not at the cost of passing on the best overall camera for my needs (which appears to be the HMC150).

OK - lets put some things in to context.  If I were using the camera to shoot weddings (which of course I do) then I would no be relying solely on a vDSLR, it's that simple.  The only thing that will do the job of a video camera over the course of a full wedding is..........  a video camera.  So, we need to clarify a few things as we go along here.

Quote
I don't think I'd get the Letus Extreme up front. It would be a down-the-road purchase when I'm lucky enough to make time for a creative non-wedding project or two. I'm not even sure I'd ever use it in a wedding, considering the potential problems you mentioned (mounting, size, weight... etc). Would still be a nice "toy" though.

Bingo.  Buy the camera first, learn how to use it, every detail of every function, because until you know how to use everything you don't yet know the full potential of the camera and could easily be missing something very useful.  I especially recommend playing with the vDetail and Coring functions in lower light.  They can make a huge difference!

For non-wedding projects, the Letus and / VDSLR are great bits of kit.  If you are shooting a short film in reasonable light, the HMC+Letus can do an awesome job.  If you are planning on shooting at night then you may want to consider the 5D2 or 7D as viable alternatives, because you are unlikely to be shooting for 20 mins solid and the sensor will get chance to cool down.   This is an important distinction between weddings and other non-wedding shoots.  At a wedding you are shooting to some one else's schedule, whereas other types of shoot you may be able to influence the schedule to suit you (and your camera).

Quote
Quote
I love my HMCs (I have 4 of them now)...

Share the love man! My mailing address is...  Wink

No honestly though... what are your thoughts on warranties David? I'm leaning towards just a 3yr warranty to try and save money... but then again, I'm thinking "Hey, if I'm spending this much, what's an extra several hundred for the 5yr?"

I registered all my cameras for the Panasonic 3 year warranty the day I got them.  Honestly, I don't know if I'll still be using them in 3 years or if I'll have moved to something else by then, so I'm not going to spend extra money now on a warranty I may never need.  The fact that Panasonic give the cameras 3 years already tells me they are confident it's going to last.  After all, there is no tape mechanism.

Quote
What are some accessories that you're utilizing with your HMCs? Shotgun Mics? What batteries? What tripod you mounting to? I'm doing my own research on accessories now, but your input would be much appreciated. I'm thinking about clicking the BUY button within a week or two here...

OK - here goes Smiley   

Batteries
The firs thing I bought was a 3 hour battery. I went for the IDX SSL-VBG50 because at the time there were no Panasonic batteries to be had, and the IDX was also significantly cheaper (at the time).  Given I now have 4 cameras, I've also bought a lot more of these batteries too.  Batteries (and the cost of them) are often over looked when budgeting for weddings, and I would say I like to have 4-6 hours worth of battery per camera as a minimum.  Occasionally I use more, but not very often, and then only on one or two of the cameras, not all 4.

Memory Cards
Don't skimp on the memory cards, on the other hand there is no need to spend too much either.  There are several ways of looking at cards, specifically with backup in mind, but alas what I think I should do and what I actually do don't always stay in sync!  I've got 10 Verbatim 16GB cards giving me a total record time of > 1,000 minutes.   I thought about using only 4GB cards so that I could back them up individually to DVD-Rs, but then I thought that 25 mins was not enough recording time and I would always be needing to switch cards at an inappropriate moment.  So, what about 8GB cards?  These could at least be backed up to dual layer DVDs, but I'm not that happy with DL DVDs so skipped this too.   The record time would be OK for most things @ about 50 mins, but in the end I thought that the 16GB was the best compromise, giving 101 mins of record time.  They can still be backed up to single layer Blu-ray discs if required (BD-R are now as little as $2), though I'm settled on backing up to HDDs most of the time.    A typical wedding leave me with around 70GB-90GB of raw footage to backup (we change cards before they get full).  The HMC can use SDHC class 4 or faster (e.g. 4, 6, 10).  Don't bother trying to use anything slower and don't buy ANY memory cards off e-bay - they are usually fake and don't work (been there done that!).

Microphones
While the built-in mics are Ok on the HMC, they are not outstanding and I do add a shotgun mic when ever audio is important.  I chose the Rode NTG2, although for on-camera work the NTG1 would do just fine.  The reason I chose the NTG-2 over the NTG-1 is that the NTG-2 can (if you want) take a AA battery to provide power to it's pre-amp and so be used remotely with a wireless mic kit (see below).   While I don't often use it like this, it has been useful when the need arises.   Of-course I have more than one NTG-2 as well!    I made the mistake of also buying the SM5 shock mount, thinking the NTG-2 would not be stable in the HMC's mic holder, but since it fits perfectly the SM5 went unused.  I do however use it on the mic stand if I'm using the NTG-2 remotely (via wireless).

Wireless Microphones
I use the Sennheiser G2 wireless mic kits (actually the EW 112-P G2 kits), with the cameras mounted receiver (mounts on the cold shoe) and the transmitter fits neatly in the Groom's (or speaker's) jacket pocket, or on their belt.   These make a huge difference to what audio can be captured at the ceremony and reception speeches.  What ever wireless system you choose, choose one, you won't regret it.  Even shotgun mics don't pick up audio well if you are forced to stand behind the bride & groom.   The G2 is now discontinued (you can still buy them), replaced with the G3 which is much more expensive because it added the diversity functions.  Make sure you learn how to use these (or any other wireless kit you buy) enough to at least change the channels on both transmitter & receiver.  Most churches here use a wireless mic themselves, and often it's the same G2 on the default channel.  If you turn up with yours on the same channel then you get t figure out how to change your channel (they won't have a clue how to change theirs) right when you are already under time pressure for everything else.

Backup Audio!
As good as microphones are, it's always nice to be able to plug in to the venue's soundboard (mixing desk) if you can, so some sort of audio recorder (e.g. the Zoom H4N or similar) is always going to be useful.

On-Camera Lights
I don't tend to use on-camera lights because the low light capability of the HMC is very good, especially with a little bit of Neat-Video love. All the same, very occasional I do wish I had one (my last light broke - think backups!) and I'm seriously considering the Comer 1800 (x2).   If any one wants to jump in with alternatives, feel free.

Tripods & Heads
Tripods and heads are a personal matter.  While I can tell you what I do and why, it's all dependent on the type of venues you shoot at and how mobile you want to be.  I just took delivery of the Manrtotto 058B tripod for the extra height it affords, but boy it's heavy and I'm really not going to be lugging that thing around all day long.  I also have some Velbon DV-7000 tripods that served well for a couple of years, but the heads are plastic and not very good.  What I have done is remove the Velbon head, taken the 3/8" to 1/4" thread adapter out of the Velbon head and mounted it to Manfrotto 503HDV heads.  So now I have a hybrid (cheaper) Velbon tripod with Manfrotto 503HDV heads.   These allow me to pick up the tripod, head, camera etc in one hand to walk through doorways without any problems (something I cannot do with the 058B), it has a single knob to free/secure the leg spreaders (unlike the 058B that uses one for each leg) and it can still reach 68" (173cm) in height to the center of the lens. It has a centre strut that can be raised (using the winding handle) where as most of the lower cost Manfrotto tripods don't.

Field Monitor
I bought a 9" field monitor to use in extreme cases.  I'm still playing with the mounting options so I can't really give you lots of feedback on this yet. It does however make focusing a lot easier when you are already zoomed in al the way (say stood at the back of a church and the minister is at the altar).

What Else?
The sky is the limit in terms of what else you can buy.  Depending on what NLE you use, I really like the Neat-Video noise reduction plug-in.  While the HMC is generally regarded as one of the better low light capable cameras, there are times when a little kiss of noise reduction can help turn something from good to great. 

Is that it?
So, first, get the camera, figure out how to use it, get the extra batteries & cards. If you are primarily concentrating on weddings then figure out where your budget allows you to go in terms of backup equipment before you spend too much on extras that are 'nice to have' but not absolutely required for a wedding.  If your primary camera fails, all the extras mean nothing without a backup camera.  If I had to prioritize things they would be batteries, cards, microphones (shotgun and wireless) before anything else, do a couple of weddings and see where you feel you are short of equipment for the style of weddings you chose to do.  Not every one is the same, so what you need may be different to me. 

Oh, I just saw how much I wrote.... and I could have gone on more.....  sorry!
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 08:09:19 AM by DavidPartington » Logged

Jason.Teets
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« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2010, 12:06:49 PM »

Wow! Thanks for all the info David... you went above and beyond the call of duty!

I officially hate shopping for gear now... I mean, I love it, but I hate it in the sense of making my damn mind up. So many high quality pieces of equipment out there, and sometimes it seems they can't be defined in terms of Product A is better than Product B, but rather Product A is just "different" than Product B. Fun, but mind racking. I guess the best thing, like you said, is to buy the camera and gear I feel I'll need, and then reevaluate after a few weddings.

On the warranties. I just realized that simply by registering with Panasonic you get the 3yr warranty, correct? So I think I'm just going to pass on the B&H 3yr warranty. What's the point of that if I'm going to just register with Panasonic?

As for batteries... I think I'm going with a few of the VBG6PPK batteries: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/547674-REG/Panasonic_VWVBG6PPK_VW_VBG6PPK_7_2V_5800mAh_.html The reviews say that those lost for about 4 hours of continuous recording (which I wouldn't be doing). I thought about the Anton Bauer Elipz setup, but for my first major camera purchase I don't really feel like messing around with mounting the unit or running a cable to the camera.

What's the main difference between the Class 4, 6, and 10 cards? Is it simply the data transfer rate, or is image quality an issue? I think 16gb cards will also best suit my wedding applications. Just need a new external drive to back everything up to now!

I'll definitely be going with a wireless audio system... just not sure of which one yet. I've been shooting with an old Azden system (can't even recall the serials) and it's been picking up some interference and is now prone to dropouts.

Hey thanks again for everything. I'll make a post (with a link to some test footage) as soon as I get my gear in.

Jason
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DavidPartington
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« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2010, 02:02:10 PM »

What's the main difference between the Class 4, 6, and 10 cards? Is it simply the data transfer rate, or is image quality an issue?

Just to be clear, there NO difference in the quality of recording between the cards.  as long as the card is at least class 4 the HMC will record at highest quality with no problems.   The only reason you may chose to use class 6 or class 10 is how fast you can copy the video from the card on to the computer.  Class 10 cards read (or can read) significantly faster than class 4, although it does require that your reader supports the class 10 speeds too - which many don't.

Of course, the faster you read/write things the less robust that transfer process may become, especially in an electrically noisy environment.   All my cards are a mixture of class 4 & 6 and I really don't feel the need to spend a fortune chasing the class 10 cards because I don't see it making that much of a difference to my workflow and I'd rather spend that money elsewhere.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 02:06:05 PM by DavidPartington » Logged

DavidPartington
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« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2010, 02:05:28 PM »

On the warranties. I just realized that simply by registering with Panasonic you get the 3yr warranty, correct? So I think I'm just going to pass on the B&H 3yr warranty. What's the point of that if I'm going to just register with Panasonic?

My understanding is that if you buy & use the camera in the same area (such as buy an official US camera and register/use in US) then Panasonic give you the 3 year warranty.  They certainly do in Europe.   The registration card also claims they guarantee a 5 day turnaround too.

If however you are buying a gray import to save money then my guess is all bets are off.

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